nyc skp: I submit that he {Madison} refers to regular folks who are otherwise engaged full-time in ordinary careers and are enjoying their Second Amendment rights.
Uh, Madison couldn't've been suggesting that, since Federalist No. 46 by James Madison.. published on Jan 29, 1788 was nearly 4 years before the 2nd amendment was written.
james Madison (pseudonym publius), jan 1788: This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence.
nyc skp replied: It seems very unlikely that Madison refers here to half a million "truly well regulated, full time, finely trained group of soldiers"..
Madison is referring to his idea of a de facto US militia which would exist if federalized (under the proposed constitution), & he mirrors closely what the articles of confederation dictated at the time for the states. That all future militia members need all be 'well regulated' or 'finely trained' is beside the point, & semantics.
A 'fleet in being' may not be well regulated or even well organized, but it is something which needs be accounted for, & if said fleet were to train yearly it would improve over time to become more well regulated & efficient.
nyc skp: It's a great essay, filled with great lines that I would like to have highlighted, but then almost all of it would have been highlighted.
jimmy's highlight: ... amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties
Madison contends the militia would be 'fighting for their common liberties', which doesn't imply individual gun possession, but liberty in the collective national sense (2ndA was still in early draft form).
Over half the adult white males in America in late 1780s did not own firearms, most likely didn't even want one, too expensive or impractical, & so individual gun ownership was not a 'common liberty' james Madison was speaking of, especially since it wasn't in any constitution at the time.
Articles of Confederation (1777-87), VII. When land forces are raised by any State for the common defense, all officers of or under the rank of colonel, shall be appointed by the legislature of each State respectively, by whom such forces shall be raised, or in such manner as such State shall direct, and all vacancies shall be filled up by the State which first made the appointment.
Articles of Confederation (1777-87), VI: .. nor shall any body of forces be kept up by any State in time of peace, except such number only, as in the judgement of the United States in Congress assembled, shall be deemed requisite to garrison the forts necessary for the defense of such State; but every State shall always keep up a well-regulated and disciplined militia, sufficiently armed and accoutered, and shall provide and constantly have ready for use, in public stores, a due number of filed pieces and tents, and a proper quantity of arms, ammunition and camp equipage
compare VI & VII with Madison's federalist 46: .. officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence
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