When Holocaust survivors speak out against the war in Gaza, and call it "genocide,"

[lees1975]

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/yom-hashoah-holocaust-survivors-against-gaza-war-say-never-again-anyone

is that anti-semitic? Just asking for a friend.

Most Americans, because our free press has broken down and our education system is trash, have no idea that the population which now lives in Gaza was already displaced from their land, cities and towns, and their homes, once already in the late 1940's, under the premise that it wasn't their land because the British Empire, who controlled it then, said so. This discussion is for those who know the history. If you aren't familiar with it, do some research and see how Gaza came into existence in the first place.

Then we can talk reasonably, without using labels like "anti-semitic".

[Beastly Boy]

1. Two totally unrelated topics.

No, a dozen or so Holocaust survivors and their families demonstrating in London against war in Gaza and calling it "genocide" is not antisemitic. I have no idea why this question would occur to your friend whom you are asking for. The answer is pretty obvious.

It is ridiculous to state that the population that now lives in Gaza was displaced. The overwhelming majority of the population in Gaza was born there since 1950. There were fewer than 450,000 people living in Gaza in 1950, and nearly 2 million in 2022. (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Data:Gaza_strip_population_history.chart) Given that 40% of Gaza population is under the age of 14 (https://www.pcbs.gov.ps/portals/_pcbs/PressRelease/Press_En_IntPopulationDy2023E.pdf), nearly the entire population living in Gaza today were born in Gaza.

You see, it IS possible to talk reasonably without using words like "antisemitic". But you couldn't resist, could you?

And based on participation requirements you stated in your post, it appears you just excluded yourself from this discussion.

[lees1975]

2. Sorry, but you are wrong

The fact that most of the current population of Gaza was born in Gaza doesn't change the fact that they are the children of those displaced and relocated to Gaza. That changes nothing.

This is just one example of what is becoming a clear majority of Jewish Holocaust survivors and children of survivors, along with a significant number of Israelis themselves, who are vociferous in their opposition to the Gaza war. Fact is, there just aren't that many Holocaust survivors still living, so any of them who speak out and speak up pn this subject are an effective voice for peace.

You need to start looking at where the rhetoric is going on this. "Emptying" a province of its people is a term that has a history the European Jewish people know only too well. These holocaust survivors apparently think that's not something they would wish on anyone else, especially not their Palestinian neighbors.

[Beastly Boy]

4. I beg to differ.

"the population which now lives in Gaza was already displaced from their land" - clearly refers to population which now lives in Gaza, not the ancestors of the population that now lives in Gaza. And hose qho were displaced into Gaza prior to 1950 never amounted to more than 20% of population in Gaza. So, unless you make a ridiculous proposition that the fertility rate of displaced Palestinians exceeds that of native Palestinians, YOU are wrong, no matter how you look at it.

You are also wrong about holocaust survivors and their families. More than 120,000 Holocaust survivors, a vast majority of them, live in Israel. You only have shown a dozen or so demonstrating in London. If you want to claim that the majority of them stand behind the "genocide" label, show me at least 60,000 of them saying so, or else your claim is worthless.

I need to start looking at the numbers, which you fail to provide to make any of your claims halfass legitimate. So follow your own advice and do some research. Or quit making stuff up.

[lees1975]

5. Thanks for begging. But that doesn't help your argument.

which is the same propaganda we always get and why Americans are woefully and inexcusably uninformed about Palestinian refugees.

[Beastly Boy]

7. I tried to be nice. It's time I start insisting.

Come up with a halfass decent argument showing that what you are saying has anything to do with this planet.

You made this discussion open to only those who know the history. So far you have shown no hint of that. Don't hold back, dazzle me with your erudition. I am looking for the slightest sign of the knowledge you demand of others.

[lees1975]

8. You're pushing propaganda.

That disqualifies you. Go read the book I recommended and get back to me afterward. That would only be a start.

Look, this is an open board and you can post your propaganda anywhere you want to. But it's not relevant to this discussion, so I'll keep ignoring it.

[Beastly Boy]

9. That's it? That's th extent of your knowledge of history? Go read a book?

I must say, I am impressed with your proficiency in empty rhetoric. It will get you far in certain circles.

But not with me. And not with yourself. Your condition for participating was knowledge of history. You have shown none. Time to hold yourself to your own standards or bow out gracefully. At least as gracefully as the circumstances permit.

[BurnDoubt]

3. Dirty business for many generations thanks to Colonialism...

that's History. What should be compelling is the scale of atrocity meted out to people whose only crime is to try to survive where the have no other choice in where to live. The only thing that is really true here is that the hatred born and bred by barbarity will come back again and again because the only tool in the toolbox has NEVER... Never... Never been effective except to create MORE HATE. Armed to the teeth and out of ideas. Ruled by DumbFucks.

[lees1975]

11. When the major powers are involved, resolutions to problems in various parts of the world are always one-sided.

The interests are unbalanced. The people of Gaza are in a political and economic limbo, never having had any sovereignty over their own destiny, always under military control of a foreign power, better off and more secure under the United Arab Republic that Egypt and Syria formed in the 60's, but still never in a stable or secure position. They are militarily and economically under Israeli control. Americans have a very biased and skewed perspective of their presence because they are Muslim, even though their ancestors were in Palestine, where there was no Jewish state in existence before 1948, going all the way back to the first century before Christ.

It was the Ottomans, under Suleiman, who were the first to initiate and welcome the return of Jews to Palestine, which was under their control until 1917. Of course, democratic societies don' t keep the peace with absolute power and military supression. But I wouldn't say that the democracies, especially the British influence, was ever all that successful at bringing the sense of security and prosperity to the middle east when they wanted to run it for their own economic interests, did they?

Getting at, and resolving the root problems of violence is not easy, and it requires a level of understanding, especially when the cultural differences run so deep, that has been beyond the reach of anyone who has held the reins of power in the Middle East.

[BurnDoubt]

12. It may take generations after a decision to forget the wounds of the past...

and fix the Future. Little chance that will ever happen with so many players having a stake in the quandary who will never have to try to make a life there. We have been successful enough that we may never have to account for the atrocities against the indigenous peoples that made our looting and killing a heroic saga and made us masters of their world. But, make no mistake... if they were to rise up and demand Justice, MAGA 'Murkins would be all about defending THEIR homes. Remember how nuts they went over masking-up.
I wish every child a good night's sleep every night, and the safety and security to have a good Life. It's do-able. But we must first fix ourselves. This isn't the children's fight, but sadly, our inability to live together will haunt them forever and make killers of them, too, until we run out of tears.

[lees1975]

6. Be informed.

It's easy for this issue to become one-sided, that's been the natural drive of most of the media reporting, as well as the written history, dominated by imperialist sources. Read a source that is an expert, and did the work to get the information, and whose perspective is valid.

https://bookshop.org/p/books/one-day-everyone-will-have-always-been-against-this-omar-el-akkad/21504713?ean=9780593804148&next=tOne Day Everyone Will Have Always Been Against This, by Omar El Akkad
]

[Beastly Boy]

10. Ok, I get it now. You are peddling a book.

I believe this is a violation of DU terms of use.

[lees1975]

13. History is always written from the perspective of the powerful, the favored, the wealthy, the conqueror.

If you want an accurate history of Gaza, what's happened to create the circumstances where we find ourselves now, then it will have to come from those who have experienced it first hand and can provide a narrative. There are multiple voices now rising up, including some of the most intense opposition coming from Israelis themselves. Gaza has gone well beyond protecting Israeli security or diminishing Hamas.

The whole middle eastern conflict is well beyond the grasp of most Americans. It's a fight with sides that we can take, and it has a lot of implications based on the phony end times eschatology of the conservative Evangelicals pushing for a Christian nationalist, fascist approach to government, rather than a Constitutional democracy. That's because most of the history, and almost all of the media coverage is from the perspective of the victors of the many wars that have taken place there since 1945.

My historical knowledge and background of Gaza is of my own research, mostly while earning an M.A. at a theological seminary. I've get several more volumes to read from my current stack, so I'm not just "one sourced" here, which will be duly recommended to free thinkers here once I've read them and can offer a review and comment. This needs to be discussed. And doing so is not anti-semitic, it's obedience to the overall human value of world peace, however that can be defined.